AH: I'm making it sound as if they [film experts] were all negative. No, they really were very cooperative and very easy and helpful. And it was Jeffrey Katzenberg who came up with Bette Midler as a suggestion for that role [OUTRAGEOUS FORTUNE] when we were looking and thinking of other people. And that was, you know, wonderful idea. And it's funny, and I remember Michael Eisner happening to be in New York when we were filming the first couple of days, and came by. Just, "Hello," and made a comment about the wig that Bette was wearing and something. And I thought, "He's right." And we changed it and, you know, re-shot and that. So you get lots of help. What I was trying to say was, you have those kinds of things, but that's not... that goes on, that's normal, that's what I'm saying. You know, we go back and forth on a lot of things. But in terms of having to have the Guild [DGA] step in, that's only happened to me twice. I was on a film titled, strangely enough, AN ALAN SMITHEE FILM [AN ALAN SMITHEE FILM: BURN HOLLYWOOD BURN], and it ended up with the Producers and company taking it away from me, which they had the right to do, and re-editing and changing it all and making a different film out of it. And it was not my film. And I went to the Guild, and the Guild checked and it said, "Yes,” I could take my name off. And I took my name off, and it became an actual Alan Smithee film. Some people thought we've done for publicity, and I said, "If they knew the pain I went through, they wouldn't have thought that." And I'm actually in arbitration now. The Guild is arbitrating. Well, the arbitration has just completed, but it's still going on in terms of collecting what the arbitrator says is needed on a cable film that I was to do up in Canada and various complications, which led to having to come to the Guild and led to an action and an arbitration and an action also by the Directors Guild of Canada on behalf of the Assistant Director and Production Manager up in Canada. [INT: So the Guild can help anyone.] The Guild is so helpful in those terms, and not just... again, caring comes into it. When I drove from Santa Monica, where... what was the name of the company? I've forgotten the name of the company. THE ALAN SMITHEE... when I drove over to the Guild all the way, twice I had to stop because I thought I was going to pass out. And when I got to the Guild, and went up to speak to Elliott Williams, I mean he was so concerned that I sit down and you know, that he'd get me something, because he could see how upset I was. And while we were talking, Jay Roth [Jay D. Roth] walked in and he said, "Arthur [Arthur Hiller], are you all right?" He got upset because I looked... And they were caring about just me as a person. Obviously they cared about what happened, you know, and that, but so you get that sort of feeling too. [INT: That's great.]

INT: How has the Guild [DGA] changed since you first joined? Do you think the Guild has changed?

AH: I think the Guild has grown stronger and stronger in all the time that I've been here. But the wonderful thing is, it's stayed with the principles that the founding, shall I say, the founding fathers, the founding group started. And that was caring about each other, caring about the members and it's just, now it's bigger and does it, and is stronger and better way that just comes with growth. But it's never lost its caring, and I think that's what's so important. It still supports every member who needs support. [INT: That's great.]

INT: I was going to go into talking about the script a little. Script, story. What do you look for in a script? What are the elements of a good story? Is there a particular quality that defines an Arthur Hiller film?

AH: When you're deciding on a script and you're reading it when you've received it from a Writer or a Producer or Studio, you go so much by your emotions, whether your emotions work on it, and then you think about it and think what was the story or what was going on. It's very hard. There are few scripts that you will read and you just grab, you know, "Boy, I want to do this." When I first read AMERICANIZATION OF EMILY [THE AMERICANIZATION OF EMILY], there was just no question in my mind; it was just so wonderful. Or once when Marty Ransohoff [Martin Ransohoff] phoned me, who had produced THE AMERICANIZATION OF EMILY, and said, "Arthur, I've got your next picture. Come over and pick up the script." And I went over, and as I picked it up, he said, "Go home and read it--now." He said, "Don't wait, read it now." He said, "This is it." And I thought, "He's the Producer, you know. And he has to feel that way." And I got home and it was SILVER STREAK, and about page 32 I thought, usually you think, "Oh this is good. This is good. I hope he can keep this up," or, "I hope she keeps it up." You know, that feeling. But I knew that was it, that Colin Higgins had a grip on it. And I knew on page 32 I was going to do that film. It's funny when I told this story to Gene Wilder some months later, he said, "Same for me but page 67." It just, you got that feeling. So sometimes you hit scripts like that and you just know that you're doing them. And most you'll read and think, "No, just not interested." Or it's good but not, "I don't feel comfortable." The hardest part is there's a whole group in between. And you're not sure. And you think, "Well, could I do this? Could I make...?" And you make a lot of bad decisions and good decisions. I mean I've turned down films that, I mean, that won a... I could list some Academy Award winners that I said no to, and then I think, "Why did I say no to it?" Well I can talk about one, because everybody said no to it. I mean why did they hire a new Director [Milos Forman] from Czechoslovakia to do ONE FLEW OVER THE CUCKOO'S NEST? Because we all turned it down. We didn't see what was so wonderful about it. Finally, because they ended up with the perfect Director for it. Milos did a wonderful job, and maybe the rest of us wouldn't have done as good a job because we didn't feel it. But there's so many times you say no, and then afterwards you... Because sometimes it takes time, it's like people say while you read it and then you see it. "Who do you see in it?" I said, "No, if I like it, I read it, and I read it, and I read it, and I read it, and it starts then to sort of visualize." I visual a little for me, or I start seeing the characters. It takes time.

AH: Once in a while you hit one [script] that grows, but certainly even after I've said, "Yes, I will do this," if it's something that intrigues me, I find that I'm reading and reading. And it starts to grow and it starts to tell me what it should look like, and what kind of acting I'm... And then you work ahead. But that's part, I do that a lot. I guess part of that is my insecurity. I like to be, how shall I say, so organized about two, three weeks ahead of filming, that I can answer any question anybody's going to ask me. And I find that helps me too, because when I'm actually filming, I'm very flexible. I can make changes. I can feel changes, because I'm not nervous about, "What am I gonna do?" Because I know I've always got what I have prepared to fall back on, so I have that security to let me be flexible and to take up on something the Actor says, and think, "Yeah, let's do that. That'll work," or, "That'll do something." [INT: When it is a difficult part of selecting a script that we are often under a lot of pressure to say yes or no. And it does take time to evaluate and think through a script and let it seep in and see how your own sensibilities relate to it. You know, a lot of times I think that it's just you have to make a decision so quickly, so you say yes or no.] It's very hard to make decisions on scripts, and usually there's so much pressure on you that… and you haven't quite thought it through, or you don't know quite what you're doing. And you never quite know what made you say yes, what made you say no, except by an emotional feel, and that's what you have to go by. It's a story you're going to have to tell. Is it a story you feel you can tell and tell well?

INT: What role do you play in developing the story and the initial draft of the screenplay that is going to become a shooting script?

AH: I've worked very few times on development. I'm not good at... I don't come up with ideas as to what would make a great film. Yes, I've optioned a couple of books because I felt something in them and worked on development. I've done a few, but I'm not… normally, I'm very dependent on the Writer phoning me or the Producer phoning or the studio phoning and saying, "Would you like to do this?" and them sending it over. And that's at my happiest. I like to start with that script that's there. Yes, I will sit with the Writer then, and I will make my suggestions. And give them my emotional feelings, whether what it is I feel need changes. Sometimes I've gone into it where I say, "Look, I feel this needs... I love this concept, but I think it needs really quite a lot of rewrite. If you're happy with it, I shouldn't even come in and talk to you, because I feel it needs so many changes. If you want I will," and I've gone in sometimes, I've gone in one time where for 45 minutes I was just going through changes and thoughts, and I could see the Producers' heads and the head of the Writers, there were two Writers, and one of the producing companies’ representatives. And for 45 minutes they just all sort of nodded, and all those changes were made. And yet I thought it was maybe too many, but they really liked them all.

INT: You've worked with so many very good Writers: Paddy Chayefsky, Colin Higgins and... Colin Higgins. [AH: Yes.] Robert Shaw? No? [AH: I didn't. I worked with Eddie Anhalt [Edward Anhalt]]. Ah yes, right, right. [AH: He did the screenplay. Robert Shaw was mad at us, actually.] Oh really? So can you talk about the collaborative process with the Writer a little bit? How you work--and I know you said on AMERICANIZATION OF EMILY [THE AMERICANIZATION OF EMILY], you basically shot the draft that he wrote.

AH: Yeah. I just love working with the Writer. Well I like working with all the creative people, because I have thoughts, but I can't write them. And it's like I was saying, AMERICANIZATION OF EMILY was a first draft, and I think if we may have changed six lines--it was a lot. But I also worked with Paddy on HOSPITAL [THE HOSPITAL], which also I think was--in fact, he won his Academy Award for HOSPITAL, and I can say this without sounding as if I'm just talking about because I did it, because I directed both of them, I think the script for EMILY was a better script. But we worked a lot on HOSPITAL, and we made a lot of changes as we were going, because when Paddy set out to write it, he set out to write a Gothic horror story. But because of what was in him, because of his feelings and attitudes about life, and about relationships with the family, and about impotence,, out came this, yes I... gently Gothic horror, but more black dramedy, with a wonderful message. That it's not enough to see a problem; you have to get in there and do something about it. And it's funny. Paddy's the only genius I ever worked with, just unbelievable what poured out of him, and yet we did have our difference. One day, while we were filming, and I was doing a scene, I'm blanking now as to what the scene was, but I had an idea of changing the characters and attitudes in a certain way, and changing a few lines, but that would give it a very different sort of feel. And fortunately Paddy was there. He was producing.

AH: So I went over to him [Paddy Chayefsky], and I said, "Paddy, I have some thoughts on this [THE HOSPITAL]." And I went through my thoughts on the changes in the character and in what they're saying and what that was in story terms. And he listened and he listened and he was sort of nodding. And when I finished he said, "Arthur, that's wonderful. But you can't do it." I said, "What do you mean? If it's wonderful, why can't I do it?" He said, "Because it would relate to the... I'd have to go back and rewrite from the beginning." And he said, "We've already shot some scenes, and so we can't do it." And I explained to him why it wouldn't, why we didn't have to go back. Why it could work just within this scene. And he disagreed, and it's the only time we sort of, well, raised our voices a little, but we went at each other about it. Because I felt, normally when Paddy said something, I said, "Listen, when a genius speaks, I listen." So I just went with it. But on this I felt so strongly and so sure, I kept at it. And we argued and argued, and finally he got so irritated he went into his office, slammed the door, and he didn't come out for four hours. And I went ahead, and I did it, because I felt that secure. And the next day, I was filming a different scene. And I was already filming, and Paddy arrived. And I see him walking over towards me. And as he got sort of towards me, he walked behind me. But as he passed behind he said, "You were right," and he kept going. And I knew what it was. His instincts were to protect his baby. And that's why he said no. And I knew that when he thought about it, he would understand, and he did. And everything was fine. [INT: That's a great story.] But normally you work with Writers, you’re just, it's back and forth, and you have good ideas, and you don't have such good ideas, or you have a great idea, and it's not so great. And the Writer has an idea and it's...you know, and it goes on. It's the teamwork, but if you're both creative, and if you both care about it, and if you are respectful, and boy, I'm, shall we say, respectful of the Writer, because I drop to my knees in front of the Writers. Where would I be if they didn't write a screenplay? I would have nothing to work on. But so you just work that way and you make the changes that you agree on or you find different ways. [INT: That's great.] Only once did I really have a problem with a Writer, and that was back in television, on a CLIMAX!. When I first went to see the Writer at home, like his opening remarks were, "I know the heads of the studio, of CBS, and don't you change a word!" And that was his whole attitude. And actually, when I sat down to have the first reading and rehearsal with the Actors, the Writer came in and gave me a new pencil with no point. You know, that was the way, and he was, proved to be a problem, and would talk to the Actors, and I finally had to have him removed. That's the only time I've had that kind of a problem. He just... And yet his partner was fine and dandy. That was at the time when hijackings first began and when they set up a law that you were not to carry any guns on the plane or make any, you know, pretend you had. This is not something that you make fun of. He was the first person arrested for making a joke on a plane, so I felt a little... [INT: That's just like character.] Yeah.

INT: Can you talk about the story and, as it relates to budgetary and casting issues as you're getting toward production and having to make script changes because of the realities of...

AH: I'm just thinking about another way of sometimes working on a script. [INT: Oh, good.] When I did a film called MARRIED TO IT, it was three couples and how they come to meet, and it deals with their relationships, each couple with each other, and then the relationship of the couples. And it was very much comment on society and on ways of living in that. And I rehearsed with the Actors, with, you know, having talked to them about characterization, and you know, backstory of their characters, the usual and what I was looking for and so on. And worked with them and worked with them. Then I sent them each off as a couple, to work just with themselves, and see what they came up with. So three couples, each couple separately worked. Then they came back, and we did it again with… I had the Writer with me. [INT: Was this improvised?] Whatever they want, they made changes that they felt in terms of their couple. Janet Kovalcik, have I got the name right? Janet? And then based on what they brought, Janet and I then talked and then worked and did some rewrite, because we got a lot of good ideas out of that and did a rewrite. So you never know quite, what... well sometimes you get what I call little rewrites that are not quite rewrites, but when we did OUT-OF-TOWNERS [THE OUT-OF-TOWNERS], people talk about that a lot and they remember Sandy Dennis saying, "Oh my god," and, "Oh my god," which she said, but it was written in the script once. And when she delivered it, it was just, I thought, "Well this is just too good." And I kept putting it in wherever I could to have her say, "Oh my god." She just did it so wonderfully. And Neil Simon loved it too, obviously, when he saw it too, you know, he realized what I was doing. He rewrote the ending. And we said, "We don't need all the, they leave New York and go back to Ohio," and we said, and we had a lot of scenes in Ohio. We said, "We don't need that," and what he rewrote based partly on what she did, was they're in a plane and the plane is hijacked. You know, they've been having all the problems of New York, whatever problem, they've been having it, and finally they're headed back home to, you think, peacefulness. And now the plane is hijacked and we just end on this shot looking up at the plane, see it turning around, obviously going somewhere else, and hear Sandy saying, "Oh my god." And that's how the movie ends. That comes out of just an Actress doing a wonderful reading on a line. So you never know, and that's why I like to have the Writer with me, actually, on the set. I'm one of those who likes to have the Writer on the set, because a picture grows and changes with all these creative juices. And if the Writer is there, the Writer can help if an Actor does something that gives you a thought, or if the weather changes and you have to make changes. You know, at worst the Writer realizes why you're making changes. Why you're changing his or her work. But it's very difficult for Writers, because in a sense they've done their work, and now they're watching so to speak. Yes, they're feeling it, but it's almost like wasting time, and they would rather be sitting, writing something else. But I've sometimes gotten on the phone with them because I wanted to make...

AH: In fact I'm thinking once on NIGHTWING, we were shooting out in the desert somewhere. And a scene wasn't working well, and I had an idea about changing it. Not major, but some change. And so I figured it out, and at lunchtime we had a helicopter working with us, because of bringing equipment out I think. I got in the helicopter, in the desert with the pilot and we found the highway and sort of went along until we saw one of those gas stations on the way. And he dropped me down there, and I picked up the phone, and I phoned to Hollywood, to Steve Shagan, the Writer, and I explained to him what I was doing. He liked it, but he sort of rewrote on the phone, because he could write better obviously than I could write. And that was the change. So you do, you never know sort of where your changes will come from. Back on OUT-OF-TOWNERS, I had trouble. I was just feeling uncomfortable staging a scene in the police station. And it bothered me, and I thought, "Well," so I flipped it over and I put the Actors on the other side, and the police sergeant... I tried a few things, and I asked the Actors, no, they felt happy with the scene; they were okay. And I thought it was okay, but I thought something wasn't quite right. But Sandy [Sandy Dennis] and Jack [Jack Lemmon] felt happy, then Anne Meara who played in the scene also said, "Oh, the problem is at the end," and she hit on what was... and it’s funny, as she said it, Neil Simon walked in. He'd just been to a basketball game, and he was passing by and he just stuck his head in. I said, "Neil, you picked the perfect time," And I gave him the note. He said, "Oh, yes," he said, "That's right." And he sat down, did a quick rewrite, and I felt comfortable with my staging it. I thought it was my staging, and it was just that the scene wasn't quite right. Just thinking about Neil, who was no slouch as a Writer, he came one day about 10:30 in the morning. We were in Central Park working, and he came by, just, "Hi." And I said, "Oh Neil, I'm glad you dropped by," I said, "Things are moving. Each scene is moving faster, playing faster than we thought, and I think we could use another scene." "Oh," he said, "Okay." This was about 10 o'clock I think, and he said, "What kind of a scene?" And I said, "Maybe one that relates to the kids, you know, we haven't done...” and I explained. He said, "Yeah, good idea. Okay." And he stayed for a while and watched, and then he left. One o'clock, he came back, he handed me three scenes. And each one was good. And I thought, you know, he had to go back to his apartment, he had to sit down, I think maybe he had one in the drawer, I don't know, but came back with three scenes and all three good. You know, and one of them I picked and we... [INT: That's great.]

INT: A lot of films seem to have many Writers on them, and a lot of your films have had one Writer, which is so nice. What do you attribute that to?

AH: I attribute a lot of it... I think if I like the film, if there's something about it that is moving me, and that makes me emotionally drawn to it, that Writer is doing something. I also feel it's that Writer's baby; the Writer came up with that, so I feel that that's the person to work with. And in almost every case, that's worked fine, just to keep going, you know, with the Writer, and they will... I'm just thinking of on LOVE STORY when we first put it together and I think it was second cut or something, I thought, "I can show it to the executives and that and see," you know, get comment from them. And I said, "I want to bring Erich Segal out from..." he was at Yale, at New Haven at that time. And everybody said, "What are you asking for trouble for? What are you, you know, don't bring him out." And I said, "It's his baby," and I said, "I'm interested in what he has to say about his baby." I said, "I'm a big boy. I can say, ‘No’." And we did. We brought him out. And he just loved it. I mean he was just flying with happiness about it. He was more exuberant about it than I was. [INT: What was his reaction to the scenes that you shot? When you went back and did some additional shooting and it was snowing and you sort of improvised some play in the snow and all. Did he like those scenes as well?] Well that's a long story, but I'll tell the story. Originally, LOVE STORY was turned down by every studio. And they had a meeting at the William Morris Agency in New York, and they told Erich Segal that they just, sorry, they couldn't make a deal anywhere. And Howard Minsky [Howard G. Minsky], who was the head of the motion picture division said, "Yes, he can make a deal. I'm going to make a deal with him." And he gave up his job, and he made a deal with Erich, and he mothered, he midwifed that film. He got it to Ali's [Ali MacGraw] Agent who liked it and then got Ali interested in with, having her interested, came out and Paramount [Paramount Pictures] expressed interest, and Nation--but he went with Paramount. And now down the line I get involved, and then Paramount was going bankrupt. They really were. They sold off half the back lot and everything. And so they, they decided they weren’t going to--New York decided they weren't going to do LOVE STORY. And Bob Evans [Robert Evans], he loved it. And by this time I think loved Ali; they later married. And he talked Charles Bluhdorn into doing it. He said, "You gotta." And finally Bluhdorn agreed to do it if I, as the Director, would swear, I mean literally swear, that I would not go over two million dollars. And I swore, and we started work at it. And while we were working, when we started, they asked me also if I could drop my salary another $25,000. And I was doing it at a quarter of my salary. My Agent was very upset because I could have done another picture, more money than I'd ever been paid, and it was a big movie, and why was I doing this little thing, and now taking, let alone a quarter of my salary, now I was agreeing... You know, once you're part of it and you know they don't have the money, you give up your $25,000. And they said, "We'll give you points," which needless to say, down the line, I had to send them a thank you note.

AH: But I did bring the film [LOVE STORY] in $25,000 under budget. Because I was very careful, because I knew they [Paramount Pictures] really didn't have the money. And now when we saw the second assembly, the one I said that we showed people, my Editor Bob Jones [Robert C. Jones] brought up the point, and I agreed, that we needed a couple more scenes in their developing love for each other that wasn't fulfilled enough, and that we needed that. And I spoke to Erich [Erich Segal] and he thought, and he said, "Yes," he could write a few. And I went to Paramount and I said, "I want to back to Boston." I said, "I cut some corners, and we need this." And they said, "No, you'll spend too much." And I used a four-letter word which is not my normal speech shall we say, saying, "I just brought the movie in for $25,000 under budget." Finally they agreed, $15,000, small crew. So Erich wrote these scenes. I said, "That's all I want, $15,000, a small crew." And we get to Boston, and it's the worst snowstorm in 20 years. In fact, only Erich and I arrived. We flew from here [L.A.], and our Producer was stuck in Chicago. Our Executive Producer and the Crew were stuck in New York. Nobody could fly out, and we went, I forget, through Pittsburgh and then Philadelphia, but somehow we got to Boston. And I was up all night with the weather people, because I had to make the decision whether to put Ali [Ali MacGraw] and Ryan [Ryan O'Neal] on the plane or not. And based on the weather people, I said, "Put them." I called, and they put them on the plane. And I spent the day scouting for locations for the rewrites. Like he'd written a scene, a picnic at the Charles River. Well, it's a snowstorm; you're not going to have a picnic at the Charles River. But I found these bleachers, and I thought, "Ah, I could just, we'll clean off a little area, let it all be snow, and let them be in their heavy coats but having lunch." So sometimes, you see, your problems can help you, because I got a more interesting sort of visual than I would have by another picnic by the river, so to speak. And so I did that, and then eight o'clock that night, the Crew had driven up from New York, and the Producer got in, and we had our production meeting at night. And the next day, the snow is falling. And I thought, "Well, we can shoot 'em coming out of his father's office after he's borrowed money," and got a nice Boston shot. "Well, wait a minute, wait. What can we do to fix this problem?" I said, "Oh, we could shoot 'em at the airport, waiting to go back." And we go to the airport, which was total bedlam. And at the airport I found a spot at American Airlines that I liked because a good background of planes. And Howard Minsky [Howard G. Minsky], the Producer, said, "I'll go get permission." He comes back, he said, "It'll be 45 minutes before I can even talk to the manager. The line up is just..." So we're sitting, and finally I said, "Let's shoot it." And they said, "But we don't have permission." I said, "It's an airport. If they throw us out, I'll find another spot." You know, sometimes you need that exact location, but other times… And we lit up and started, we got ready to shoot. And just then two American Airline officials walk by the... I thought, "Uh-oh." They walked by, I hear one say to the other, "What are they doing?" And the other said, "I guess they're shooting a commercial," and they kept going, and we got the shot. And I got Howard out of the line, and I said, "We're finished. You don't have to get permission." Then there was nothing else we could do. And I felt total guilt, because I had made the decision to do it. And I was upset and the Producer and Executive Producer both said, "Look, it happens. We'll call it a day, and we'll hope for better weather tomorrow." And I said, "No, no." I said, "Take the Actors to lunch. I'll go to Harvard [Harvard University]," and I told them where to meet me. I said, "And then I'll think of something."

AH: And when they [referring to the Actors and Producer of LOVE STORY] got to Harvard [Harvard University] after lunch, and I was there, I said to the Producer [Howard G. Minsky], I said, "I need a football, and I need a football stadium opened." And he looked at me and said, "Arthur," he said, "there's three feet of snow on the ground, and it's snowing, and you want a football and the football stadium opened?" I said, "Yeah, yeah, yeah." But he got them for me. And all that playing in the snow, I ad-libbed with Lou Barlia with the hand-held beside me, listening to me, watching them. You know, I had Ryan [Ryan O'Neal] throw the ball and she [Ali MacGraw] catches it, and he tackles her. You know, and she falls. He had snow on her. She licked it off. When I had them build a snow castle, Ryan used it to fall over, you know, crush it and kiss her. I remember the Producer on a talk show saying, "We were doing this, and suddenly I hear the Director screaming at them, 'Make angels! Make angels!'" And he said, "I thought what the hell is make angels?" But they knew what I meant and their arms. And all that playing in the snow, we ad-libbed, and the picture wouldn't be the same without it. We lucked in. Of course Francis Lai put unbelievable music to it, but think, the picture you have to be in there. You have to keep thinking, and take advantage of your problems, and figure out something--